CVIndependent

Sat11282020

Last updateMon, 24 Aug 2020 12pm

Why are threesomes much more accepted in the popular imagination than foursomes? I was just googling “finding foursomes,” and the first result is an article about threesomes that takes for granted that people are looking for MFF groups. That is a form of heteronormativity, right?

I am not judging threesomes, of course, but asking why foursomes are perceived as more taboo. I would be interested in knowing more about what you think about this, or if you have any resource to recommend, as I am approaching this now with my partner for the first time.

By the way, I love what you do with your work.

Willing To Foursome

I don’t think the popular imagination has conspired against foursomes or that foursomes are really that much more taboo than threesomes, WTF. Rather, I think threesomes are easier to arrange than foursomes, and the popular imagination reflects that fact.

Think about it: Finding two people who wanna fuck each other is hard. Finding three people who all wanna fuck each other—Person A wants to fuck Person B and Person C, Person B wants to fuck Person A and Person C, Person C wants to fuck Person A and Person B—is harder still. Adding a Person D to the mix makes the wannafuckmath infinitely more complicated. Which is not to say everybody fucks everybody during a threesome, of course, but at the very least, everyone involved has to at least be OK with fucking in very close proximity to everyone else involved.

While complicated to arrange and often emotionally tricky, WTF, threesomes aren’t really that taboo. According to research into sexual fantasies done by Dr. Justin Lehmiller, it’s the single most-common sexual fantasy. More than 90 percent of men and nearly 90 percent of women fantasize about having a threesome, according to Dr. Lehmiller’s research; according to other research, roughly one in five people has actually participated in at least one threesome. (Full discloser/cumblebrag: I lost my virginity in a MMF threesome.)

Threesomes are heteronormative by design, e.g., they were arranged to fulfill a straight man’s standard-issue MFF fantasy, but judging from my mail, just as many MFF threesomes are arranged to fulfill the same-sex desires of often-but-not-always-newly-out bisexual women who already have husbands or boyfriends—which less heteronormative and more bisupportive/biexplorative. (My mail isn’t scientific evidence, I realize, but it’s what I’ve got.) And for the record, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a heteronormative threesome. Straight guys should be allowed to have and realize their sexual fantasies without being shamed, just like everyone else, so long as they’re realizing them with consenting adult partners. And while straight guys have historically done most of the judging and shaming of non-straight/non-guys over the entire course of human history, the corrective isn’t to heap shame on straight guys with off-the-rack sexual fantasies. Instead, it’s to demand that no one should be shamed for their sexual fantasies, and we should demonstrate our commitment to that principle by not shaming anyone—not even straight guys—who seek to realize their sexual fantasies with other consenting adults.

And finally, WTF, there is one place where foursomes are far less taboo and could even described as standard: the organized, mostly straight and often supremely heteronormative swingers’ scene. If you and your partner are of the opposite sex and are interested in or willing to settle for strictly heterosexual sex where men are concerned, you might find more luck arranging foursomes at swingers’ parties—once those parties are possible again—than on dating apps.


Where do I go from here? My parents voted for Trump in 2016 and again in 2020. I’m a lesbian. My partner and I have been together for nearly 20 years. My parents have always been supportive; we have a great relationship. But I can’t reconcile their vote for this piece of trash. They’re not even pro-life or religious. I genuinely don’t understand.

What The Fuck Do I Do Now?

My dad voted for George W. Bush in 2004. Bush’s campaign was pushing anti-gay-marriage ballot initiatives across the country in the hopes that bigots would turn out in huge numbers and put his incompetent ass back in the White House. The fact that the then-president of the United States—the worst one we thought we’d see in our lifetimes—was waging a demagogic campaign against one of his own children didn’t stop my dad from voting for him. For a second time.

I didn’t stop talking to my father.

While I believe we have to confront family members about their bigotries, and that there have to be social consequences when people vote for racism and fascism and oligarchy and corruption and disease and death, WTFDIDN, I don’t think cutting off contact with non-toxic/non-QAnon parents or family members is the answer. Where there’s evidence of cognitive dissonance—and a family member voting for someone seeking to harm people they love is certainly evidence of cognitive dissonance—there’s also an opportunity.

I would urge you to express your displeasure to your parents and demand better from them—and to keep bringing it up. While text messages from strangers and robocalls often fail to move people, appeals to conscience—sometimes angry ones—from family members often work. I’ve heard from a lot of people over the last few months whose parents voted for Trump in 2016 but voted for Biden this year. I wish I could say my dad was one of them. Maybe next time.

There are elections coming up in 2022, and there’s a high likelihood we will see a Trump on the ballot in 2024. (There are also two special elections in Georgia in January that will determine who controls the U.S. Senate!) The parents who disappointed you and endangered our Democracy in this election are likelier to come around before the next election if you demand answers from them now.


I’d like to think I am pretty open and understanding to a lot of things. I met a hot guy at my job who says he has a fetish for ass. In a sexting session, I learned he was not only obsessed with my ass, but me playing with his, too. He later revealed there was only one other woman with whom he felt comfortable sharing his gay fantasies. Everything involved ass play, sucking dildos or DP. (Eyebrow raised.) I asked him if he was curious about gay sex, and he said no. In no way does he want a man, he said, and everything he wanted done to him, he wanted a woman to do.

We’ve had several sexting sessions, and it always shifts to me dominating him or a gay-sex fantasy. I really want to be open, but he is making this very hard.

Questioning Unusual Exceptionally Erotic Relationship

This would be easier if you were clear—clear with yourself—about what you want and what’s possible. If you want a long-term relationship that doesn’t revolve around ass play, and you couldn’t possibly enjoy a casual sexual adventure with a hot guy who isn’t a good potential long-term partner … then you should stop sexting with him. But if you’re up for a crazy, ass-centered sexual adventure with a hot guy that won’t lead to anything serious or long-term … then get yourself a strap-on dildo, and order this not-gay guy to get on his not-gay knees and suck your not-gay dick.

I suspect you feel tense after sexting with this guy, because you’re left thinking, “My God, what am I signing up for here?” with the animating assumption being that “going there” means getting stuck there. But if you told yourself you were only signing up for a crazy night or a crazy weekend instead with this ass-obsessed dude, and not a lifetime with him, you would most likely feel a lot less nervous about this connection.

In other words, QUEER, being open to playing with this guy doesn’t mean you have to be open to dating him, much less marrying him. But, again, if having a sexual adventure with someone who isn’t a potential long-term partner isn’t something you could see yourself doing and enjoying, QUEER, stop responding to this guy’s sext messages.

On the Lovecast, Dan consults a rabbi; www.savagelovecast.com.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.; @FakeDanSavage on Twitter.

Published in Savage Love

I’m a 30-something gay man married to a 30-something gay man. For almost two years, we’ve been seeing another pair of married gay men around our age. They were our first experience with any sexual or romantic interaction outside of our relationship.

The first six months were hot and heavy. We were together constantly and having sex almost every night. After the “honeymoon phase” ended, one member of the other couple (“Roger”) wanted to slow things down. Roger and I had some conflict over this, and I have to admit that I showed a pretty bad side of myself while grappling with insecurity. Eventually, Roger pulled me aside to talk one-on-one. He wanted us to be “friends who have sex sometimes.”

Then, right after the COVID-19 lockdown started, Roger and I had another heart-to-heart on my birthday. After many drinks and a lot of making out, we both said we loved each other. Roger walked it back the next day. “I don’t know what you thought you heard last night,” he basically said, “but I’m not in love with you.”

I was devastated. This isn’t what I want. I am in love with Roger and his husband. I don’t want to be “friends who have sex sometimes.” My husband is OK with just being friends with Roger and his husband, especially since their large friend group has adopted us, and he worries we’ll lose all these new friends if I end our friendship with Roger and his husband. I would really like to talk this out with Roger, but I’m not sure I can get through that conversation without DTMFAing him.

I mean, which was it? Were we a fun sexy fling, and nothing about the last two years mattered? Or was he in love with me but decided the conflict and complication of this relationship wasn’t worth it? Which was it?

Trouble In The Quad

Roger doesn’t want what you want.

That sucks, and I’m sorry. But we’ve all been there. Falling for someone who doesn’t feel as strongly for us as we do for them, whether we’re dating as couples or singles, is always painful. But that pain is an unavoidable risk. And while it may seem unfair that you can only have Roger in your life on his terms, that’s the reality. That’s everyone’s reality, TITQ, because loving someone doesn’t obligate that person to love us back, or love us in the same way that we love them, or want the same things we want. But Roger can’t impose his terms on you. If being “just friends” feels like an insulting consolation prize after what the last two years has meant to you, if that’s not good enough, then Roger doesn’t get to be in your life. You can have terms, too.

Backing up for a second: You seem to believe that if the relationship mattered—if Roger and his husband loved you and your husband, and vice-versa—then it wouldn’t have ended. That’s false. Something can matter and still end. Something can also matter more to one person than it did to another person. (Or couple.) You don’t have to dismiss or minimize what the four of you had because Roger has decided, for whatever reason, that being in a quad with you isn’t what he wants.

And if you’re hoping to get this quad back together … and it’s entirely up to Roger … you’re going about it wrong. If Roger got cold feet due to the “conflict and complication” of being in a poly relationship, TITQ, your best move is to avoid conflict and complication. If you think Roger told the truth on your birthday and lied to you the next day, then you need to demonstrate the kind of emotional maturity that makes you a more-attractive partner to a person like Roger. And provoking a confrontation with Roger—staging a scene where you’re likely to dump a guy who has already dumped you—will have the opposite effect. It will only confirm for Roger the decision he has already made.

Your best bet—your best strategy—is to accept Roger’s offer of friendship and refrain from blowing up at him. You should also tell him, just once and very calmly, that you and your husband would be open to getting back together with him and his husband. Best-case scenario, the quad gets back together. Worst-case scenario, you have some great memories, a whole bunch of great new friends, and maybe, once in a while, a hot foursome with Roger and his husband.

Two last things …

I would love to see video of you showing the “bad side” of yourself to Roger. People tend to minimize their own shitty behavior—all people do it, myself included. If you’re prone to blowing up when you don’t get what you want, well, it’s understandable that someone who dislikes conflict and complication would start getting cold feet once the honeymoon phase ended. I’m not suggesting you’re toxic or unbearable‚ TITQ, only that different people have different tolerance levels for romantic conflict. But if what you want is for Roger to reconsider the decision he’s made, well, you might also wanna let him know you’re working on your approach to conflict. If you don’t want Roger to regret getting the quad back together and then quickly end things again, TITQ—or for the next Roger or Rogers who come into your life to head for the hills after the honeymoon phases end—you should talk with someone who can give you the tools to better handle conflict.

And finally, TITQ, the other two men in this quad feel strangely inert—more like houseplants than husbands. I mean, you have nothing to say about how Roger’s husband feels, and very little to say about how yours does. Is Roger’s husband interested in keeping the quad together? Besides not wanting to lose some new friends, does your husband give two shits? Because even if Roger decides he wants back in, TITQ, and that’s a big if, your revived quad won’t last long if your houseplants—sorry, your husbands—aren’t just as invested as you are.


The man I’m seeing is the first person I ever opened up to about my bisexuality. Over our first year together, we had several threesomes, but we both became uncomfortable with them, and one day, he told me he could not have that kind of sex with a woman he cares about. We quarantined together, and he felt COVID-19 had forced us to rush things. We decided to spend less time together to focus on our careers, which had both taken a hit.

Now we only see each other every two weeks or so. I thought it could be fun to reconnect and do some more threesomes. He agreed but asked me to handle things. I found us some amazing girls—but as in the past, our threesomes led to problems. I feel threatened; he feels jealous. We fight; I cry; he gets angry and acts like an asshole. I’m very insecure, depressed, and have spent years in therapy. The threesomes feel like too much, but we have great sex when we talk about other women.

Is there any way we can make this work?

Lost Into My Emotions

I feel really sorry for the women you two are having threesomes with. Even if you’re doing your very special guest stars the courtesy of waiting until they leave to break down in tears, LIME, and even if your boyfriend is polite enough to wait until they’re gone before acting like an asshole, these women are most likely picking up on the tension and may feel conflicted about the sex after they go. If you’re having these meltdowns and blowups in front of these women, LIME, they definitely leave feeling terrible and may worry they did something wrong when it’s you two who are doing something wrong—continuing to have threesomes despite knowing they never end well.

While I don’t think a woman should waste her time (or pussy) on a man who tells her he can’t have “that kind of sex,” i.e., sex she enjoys, with a woman he cares about, I can understand why you might want to keep seeing this guy. (COVID-19 is making it hard to find new partners.) But you should stop doing the thing that doesn’t work—having threesomes—and do the thing that does work instead: talking dirty to each other about other women. And if you still want to get with women, LIME, do it solo. He doesn’t need to be there for you to enjoy an amazing girl.

www.savagelovecast.com; This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.; @FakeDanSavage on Twitter.

Published in Savage Love

I’m a 33-year-old woman in a relationship with a 43-year-old man. My boyfriend’s fantasy is to have a threesome with another man. He enjoys watching me have sex with other men and then intermittently fucking me—but he mostly likes to watch me get fucked. For a long time, my boyfriend would send nudes or videos of him fucking me to men we met on dating apps. We would talk dirty about it during sex. Recently, we met up with a man for the first time. I don’t think it went well.

My boyfriend and I have had conversations about my fear of contracting an STI. So before the threesome started, I explained to my boyfriend and the other guy that condoms were required. They both agreed. This guy was really nervous, and when he put a condom on, he went flaccid. He would try to fuck me with his flaccid, condom-covered penis, but it just didn’t work. He would take the condom off, jerk off, get semi-hard, put a condom back on, and go completely soft again. Even when I sucked the guy’s dick: nothing. (He actually told me to stop trying!) So my boyfriend, who was observing and jerking off, suggested we forget the condoms in the hopes this guy could stay hard. I said no and restated my boundary. The guy still couldn’t get it up, hopped out of bed and started getting dressed. My boyfriend offered to let the guy cream-pie me if he would stay. I said fuck no, and the guy left. He didn’t even say bye.

I don’t know why the guy couldn’t get hard. But I certainly don’t think my boundary should be compromised because a stranger can’t get it up.

My boyfriend keeps suggesting we meet up with this guy again so he can “get closure.” He really wants to watch this guy at least come on me. My boyfriend and this guy have since texted about him fucking me again. I’m all for being GGG, but ... what the fuck? I thought this guy was kind of an asshole. My boyfriend was definitely an asshole.

My questions are: If I’m uncomfortable during a threesome, how do I politely call it off? I don’t want to embarrass anyone, but this went on for two hours, and the guy never got it up. How do I terminate a threesome without sounding like a bitch?

Threesome Obviously Dried Up My Pussy

To politely call off a threesome, TODUMP, all you gotta say is, “Hey, this isn’t working for me—let’s take a rain check.” Say it while pulling up your pants and use your “final answer” voice.

The “rain check” thing doesn’t have to be sincere. It can be, of course, if you’re interested in trying again sometime, but it doesn’t have to be. The “rain check” thing is mostly a nice, polite, face-saving, ego-sparing way to ease someone out of your pants/bed/playroom/apartment/whatever. And if anyone starts arguing with you—if your third or your primary partner starts arguing with you—don’t worry about being polite, TODUMP. Go ahead and be a bitch: “This is over; you/they need to go; rain check rescinded, asshole/assholes.”

While we’re on the subject of terminating things with assholes, TODUMP, you need dump your incredibly shitty fucking boyfriend immediately—and there’s no need to be polite about it. Fuck him. Your boyfriend tried to coerce you into having sex without condoms when he knew you didn’t want to; you consented to having a threesome on the condition that condoms be used. Attempting to reopen negotiations about your stated boundaries once the threesome was underway was a violation of your consent. And your boyfriend knew you wouldn’t want to embarrass anyone and maliciously attempted to weaponize your consideration for other people’s feelings against you! Can’t you see that? He was hoping you wouldn’t embarrass him by refusing to have sex without condoms after he “offered” to let this guy cream-pie you (come inside you) to get him to stay! He was hoping you’d rather risk an STI than risk embarrassing or contradicting him! And on top of that, he spoke to this guy like it was up to him—up to them—what happened next, like you were a Fleshlight or tube sock or something!

Now your asshole boyfriend is pressuring you to get back together with a guy who couldn’t get it up with a condom on when he knows you don’t want to have sex without condoms? A guy who couldn’t be bothered to say goodbye after you sucked his fucking dick? And your boyfriend is claiming you owe him (or them) closure?

WTF?

This relationship should have been over the moment your boyfriend made it clear some stranger’s dick was more important to him than your health, safety and boundaries. In that moment—that moment he attempted to barter away your boundaries—he proved he can’t be trusted, and that you aren’t safe with him, TODUMP, alone or with a third.

DTMFA.

This is every woman’s nightmare scenario when it comes to cuckolding or hotwifing—that her boyfriend or husband will pressure her to do things she doesn’t want to do during a sexual encounter with another man. Guys like your boyfriend not only don’t deserve to have GGG girlfriends or their fantasies fulfilled; they ruin things for other wannabe cucks, stags and hot husbands. He not only deserves to be alone forever, TODUMP; he deserves to be kicked in the balls forever.


One of my closest friends kissed me while very drunk and then told his female partner; now he’s not allowed to see me anymore, even in group settings. (I am also female.) I understand that cutting off contact is the universally recommended first step after someone cheats, but considering how close we are as friends, it is heartbreaking to think I might lose him over this one incident.

We are former co-workers, and we’ve been close friends and regular drinking buddies for 12 years. Nothing has EVER happened between us before this one very drunk night. We ended up making out on the sidewalk outside of a bar and exchanged a few semi-dirty text messages later that night, which—unfortunately for all of us—his partner saw. He thinks we just need to be patient, and one day, we’ll be able to pick up our friendship where we left off. While I know he needs to prioritize his partner now, I’m scared that we actually won’t be able to stay friends after this.

Do I just swallow my sadness about the likelihood of losing a best friend over a relatively minor infidelity? Or is there anything I can do to help the situation? FWIW: I’m in a happy open marriage and have never once tried to initiate anything with him. I’ve never been attracted to him before and wouldn’t want anything to happen between us again, anyway—even if the kiss was hot. Complicating matters, my friend wanted to re-raise the possibility of opening up his relationship with his partner, which he insists has nothing to do with me. (My friend is male, and his partner and I are both female.)

Friend With No Benefits

Hmm … I have a hunch you were something of a sore subject before this incident, FWNB, however isolated. If the text messages your friend’s partner saw confirmed fears she’d already been told were irrational, your exile is likely to last as long as their relationship does.

But take heart: If your friend decides to reopen discussions about opening up their relationship in the wake of this incident, your friend will likely be single again soon. If they do manage to stay together, FWNB, the only way to get back into her good graces—and back in your friend’s life—is to gracefully accept your exile. (Going to her and saying, “It only happened because we were so drunk!” isn’t quite the slam-dunk you think it is, seeing as you and her boyfriend are drinking buddies.) It’s a paradox, I realize, but if she sees that her boyfriend is willing to cut off all contact with you to set her mind at ease, FWNB, she may be willing to give your friendship her blessing down the road.

On the Lovecast—Raising children in a happy, poly home: savagelovecast.com.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.; @FakeDanSavage on Twitter.

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My boyfriend and I met online to explore our kinks. We’d both been in relationships with kink-shaming people who screwed with our heads. Since we weren’t thinking it was more than a hookup, we put all our baggage on the table early and wound up becoming friends. Eventually, we realized we had a real connection and started a relationship where we supported our desire to explore. I’ve never been happier.

The only issue is how he gets down on himself if I get more attention than he does. After the first kink party we went to, he would not stop trying to convince me that no one looked at him all evening. I tried to boost his confidence, and I also brought up things like, “You were on a leash, so maybe people assumed you were off-limits.” No dice. I couldn’t get him to even entertain the notion that anyone even looked at him. He’s a cross-dressing sissy who loves to be used by men—heterosuckual—and he has a lot of baggage with every last one of his exes citing his cross-dressing as a reason to leave him for a “real” man. To make things worse, we have had issues with guys coming over for him, finding out there’s a Domme female in the picture, and switching focus to me. I feel like I wind up avoiding kinky sexual situations (which I love!), because I’m so concerned about protecting his ego. I’ve tried using my words, and we generally communicate well, but he is unwilling to entertain any interpretations that don’t mesh with his theory that he’s obviously undesirable.

The breaking point for me was this past weekend. He encouraged me to go to a swingers party with a friend, and I had a blast. It was super-empowering, and all I wanted to do was tell him every detail—the way he will when he services cock—and he was so jealous that I was able to effortlessly get so much attention that he wasn’t ready to hear it. It made me feel the same sex shame I felt with my ex. It also made me feel like he was insinuating—how could I get so lucky?—which hit all my chubby-girl self-conscious places hard.

Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated!

Seeking Insightful Stress Solution, Yup

Tell that sissy to get over herself.

Your boyfriend is making you feel guilty about something you have no control over: Women get more attention at mixed-gender sex/play parties than men do. And as far as your respective kinks go, SISSY, there are always going to be more people out there who want to get with Domme women than guys who want to get with/be serviced by submissive heterosuckual cross-dressers. Your boyfriend will always attract less interest than you do at a kink party, just as someone who goes to a BDSM play party hoping to do a little knife play will attract less interest than someone who’s looking for a little light bondage.

Instead of counting the number of guys who approach you at a party and then trying to ruin your night for getting more attention than he does, your boyfriend has to make the most of every opportunity that comes his way. And if some guy approaches him at a play party only to realize he’s on a leash, SISSY, isn’t that guy supposed to turn his attention to the Dominant partner? If your boyfriend could resist the urge to spiral down at those moments—if he could resist the urge to make himself the center of negative attention—those men would probably turn their attention back to him at some point, particularly if you encouraged/gave them permission to do so. (You could and perhaps should also make it clear to anyone who approaches you at some-if-not-all kink parties that you’re a package deal: You play together, or you don’t play at all. But even then, your boyfriend has to accept that you’ll be leveraging your desirability on both your behalves, and be at peace with it.)

Usually when I advise readers to “use their words,” it’s about making sexual needs clear, i.e., asking for what we want with the understanding that we may not always get what we want. But what you need (and you need to use your words to get), SISSY, is for your boyfriend to knock this petty, hypocritical slut-shaming shit off. (He’s essentially shaming you for being the slut he’d like to be.) It might help if you got him to recognize and grieve and accept not just the reality of the situation—women with more mainstream kinks are more in demand at mixed-gender kink parties than men with niche kinks—but also the risk he’s running here: His insecurities are sabotaging your relationship. Him setting traps for you—like encouraging you to go out and play, only to make you feel terrible about it afterward—and making hurting insinuations about your attractiveness is making this relationship untenable. Tell him that you’re going to dump him if he can’t get a grip. And then ask him what will be worse—being partnered with someone who gets more attention than he does in kink and swinger spaces, or being a single male in those spaces? (It’s a trick question, at least partly, as many of those spaces don’t allow single males.)


Straight woman here with a penis question: My current partner is uncircumcised, which I am completely fine with. However, his foreskin is so tight that it can’t be pulled back over the head of his penis. I did my research and discovered the issue is phimosis. I asked him about it, and he said it’s always been this way and that sometimes it is painful. None of his doctors have seemed to notice it during exams, and he’s never brought it up. Oddly enough, this is something that I’ve come across with two different partners—and in both situations, they had issues with maintaining an erection. Is this a thing?

My Boyfriend’s Penis

Phimosis is definitely a thing, MBP, and when it makes erections a painful thing, as it often does, erections are going to be harder to obtain and sustain. And unless a doctor was examining your boyfriend’s erect penis, it’s not something a doctor would notice. A good doctor will ask their patients about their sexual health and function, but—based on the mail I get—it seems very few people have good doctors.

Looking on the bright side: Phimosis is easily treated, if you can persuade your boyfriend to ask his doctor about it. Smearing a steroid cream on his cock could stretch and loosen the foreskin. And if the cream doesn’t work, then a full or partial circumcision will do the trick.


I love my boyfriend, and he knows I like women, too. Our sex life was OK, a little boring and routine and always “doggy style.” And he hardly ever goes down on me—like, at all. I can count on one hand the number of times he’s done it in four years! So I agreed to have a threesome to spice things up, and we bought condoms. When we got down with another woman, he decided to have sex with her after me … and he also decided to go down on her. You know, the thing he never does for me.

I’m so upset now that I can’t even have sex with him. I feel like it was a betrayal of my trust for him to eat out a woman he barely knows when he won’t do that for me. He also didn’t use the condoms—he says he “didn’t have time.” He said it meant nothing. But it’s really got me upset.

Now Overlooking My Need Of Munching

Not only would I have been upset during that threesome, NOMNOM; I would have been single very shortly after it. Dude doesn’t eat pussy—dude doesn’t eat your pussy—and can’t find the time to put a condom on when he wants to (gets to!) have sex with another woman in front of you? DTMFA.

On the Lovecast, sex workers’ rights advocate Elle Stanger: savagelovecast.com.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.; @fakedansavage on Twitter; ITMFA.org.

Published in Savage Love

I have a secret: For the past three months, I’ve been attending a local jacks club (a men-only masturbation event). As someone recovering from sexual abuse, I find the party to be safe, therapeutic and just sexy fun. I feel like I need this!

Unfortunately, I spotted one of my employees at last week’s event. Although I’m openly gay at my workplace, being naked, erect and sexual in the same room as my employee felt wrong. I freaked out, packed up and departed without him seeing me (I hope). I’m his manager at work, and I feel that being sexual around him could damage our professional relationship. It could even have dangerous HR consequences.

I realize he has every right to attend jacks, as much right as me, but I wish he weren’t there. I want to continue attending jacks, but what if he’s there again? Frankly, I’m terrified to discuss the topic with him. Help!

Just A Cock Kraving Safety

“I hate to say it, but now that JACKS knows his employee attends these events, he really has to stop going,” said Alison Green, the management consultant behind the popular Ask a Manager advice column (askamanager.org) and the author of Ask a Manager: How to Navigate Clueless Colleagues, Lunch-Stealing Bosses, and the Rest of Your Life at Work.

And why do you have to stop going to your beloved JO club?

“In an employment relationship where he’s in a position of power,” said Green, “JACKS has a responsibility to avoid any remotely sexual situation with an employee.”

Green also strongly advises against pulling your employee aside and working out some sort of shared-custody agreement—you get jacks to yourself every other week—because initiating a conversation with a subordinate about when and where he likes to jack off would be a bad idea. She also doesn’t think you can just keep going in the hopes that your employee won’t be back.

“If he continues to attend, and it got back to anyone at their workplace, it would be really damaging to his reputation—not the fact that he was at the event to begin with, but the fact that he continued to attend knowing an employee was also participating,” said Green. “It would call his professional judgment into question, and it’s highly likely that HR would freak out about the potential legal liability that arises when you have a manager and a subordinate in a sexual context together.”

It seems crazy unfair to me that you should have to stop going to parties you not only enjoy, JACKS, but that have aided in your recovery. And Green agrees—it isn’t fair—but with great power (management) comes great responsibility (avoiding places where your employees are known to jack off).

“It’s never going to feel fair to have to drop out of a private, out-of-work activity just because of your job,” said Green. “I’m hoping it’s possible for JACKS to find a different club in a neighboring town. Or he could start his own club and offer a safe haven for other managers hiding out from potential run-ins with employees—Jacks for Middle Managers or something!”

While I had Green’s attention, I asked her about other sorts of gay social events that might toss a manager and an employee into a sexual context—think of the thousands of men who attended the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco last month. Gay men (and others) walk around in various states of undress or dress up, and a lot of flirting, groping and more goes down. Should gay men in management have to skip events like Folsom, lest they run into men they supervise?

“Public events are different from private clubs,” said Green. “A private club is more intimate, and a public event is, well, public. And it’s not reasonable or practical to expect managers to entirely curtail their social lives or never attend a public event. But a private club that’s organized specifically and primarily for sexual activity is in a different category.”

However, gay managers who run into employees at events like Folsom or circuit parties shouldn’t ogle, hit on or photograph their employees.

“If someone who reports to you is in a sexual situation,” said Green, “you should keep moving and give them as much space as you reasonably can.”

I’m going to give myself the last word here: You’ve been attending that JO club for months and saw your employee there only once, JACKS, so I think you can risk going back at least one more time. I would hate to see you deprived of release (and see your recovery set back!) if your employee was there only that one time.

Follow Alison Green on Twitter @AskAManager.


My husband and I are visiting Italy right now. We decided to try out the local hospitality and have had two bad hookups. Both of us knew early on in the encounters that we weren’t enjoying it, but we didn’t know how to extricate ourselves.

What is the proper way to end a failed hookup with minimum insult/hurt to the third person?

Texans Seeking Amore

1. The unvarnished truth: “We’re sorry, but we aren’t really feeling it.”

2. The little white lie: “Oh, my goodness. I think the clams we ate earlier were off. I’m so sorry; we’re going to have to call it a night.”


My wife recently came out as bisexual after spending time with a woman who awakened her feelings. I suspected for a long time that my wife was probably bisexual, so I had no issues telling her to explore this side of her sexuality. My only caveat for opening our marriage was that I wasn’t comfortable with her entering into a relationship with another man. This pissed my wife off; she told me I was being irrational; we fought about it, blah blah blah.

Fast-forward a few weeks. My wife swiped right on a guy on Tinder and then checked in with me to see if the boundaries had shifted. I have a hotwife-type fetish, so I gave her the OK to swap sexy texts, and we agreed on a possible threesome. It didn’t pan out; my wife was bummed; we moved on.

She has started chatting up other guys on Tinder. Nothing has happened yet between them, but I feel like I’m being pulled ahead of where I’m comfortable in exploring an open marriage. I’m not opposed to simple hookups, but a separate relationship with a man? The intimacy and affection parts bug me.

How do you acclimate to this kind of adjustment? Or do I throw the brakes on and reverse?

Personally Feeling Fearful Today

So you gave your wife permission to explore her bisexuality—with other women—and she jumped on Tinder and started swiping right on men? Even though you’d told her that wasn’t something you were comfortable with? And it now appears that your wife doesn’t just want to have sexual experiences with women and men (but mostly with men), but relationships with other women and men (but mostly with men)? And she only checks in with you about your boundaries to see if they’ve crumbled yet?

This isn’t how someone opens up a marriage, PFFT, unless that someone isn’t interested in staying married. So you’re going to need to hit the brakes and get some clarity from your wife. You’re willing to open your marriage up to allow for outside sexual experiences, preferably ones you get to take part in (hot-wifing scenes, threesomes), but you’re not interested in polyamory—that is, you don’t want your wife to have a boyfriend. If a boyfriend is what she wants, and she’s unwilling to compromise and can’t negotiate with you in good faith, you don’t want to be her husband.

On the Lovecast, cartoonist Ellen Forney on dating with bipolar disorder: savagelovecast.com.

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Published in Savage Love